MattisManzel?
Money is an agreement. You agree on the fact that something worthless - a sheet of paper, a decimal comma in a row of numbers somewhere in a book or in a computer’s memory - has a reliable counterweight in goods and services. It’s nothing but an agreement.
See the global monetary system as a program. What would you do with it? You’d completely drop it and reprogram the whole thing, right? And this is exactly what we are going to do.
Change the agreement. Opensource it.
Why? The sum of valid money in the world is unknown. Is this an operation system? I ask you?
The sum of global money sigi proposes is 1 (in words one). This is rather the base for an operation system you’ld work on, innit?
new: 2006-04-02 09:24 UTC
HelmutLeitner?
Mattis, I agree with you that money is just a symbol and that without a community that agrees on its value and provides it with trust, money is without value.
I disagree that changing the coordinates of the money system would change anything of importance. In theory the available ammount of money is known, by adding all the money that has been printed or brought into electronic circulation by all national banks. But this doesn’t take into account that money can be lost, burned, whatever.
The idea of money=1 is just an idealization, a fiction of controllability and justice. But money=1 is not practical. It makes money production unavailable for the founder. It makes creation of physical money very hard.
Anyway, anyone can create money. You and sigi can. Just do it! In fact a lot of people or regions do this, some with great success. imho the big advantage of such regional money systems is that they produce a local money resource and by-pass taxation. At the OpenLeader? network there is an active workgroup that supports various initiatives and does active research and development.
new: 2006-04-03 01:56 UTC
sigi
zu “physical money that can be printed, lost, burned, whatever” : das soll durch das computer-geld ja gerade wegfallen . regionales geld wird in gemeinschafts-konten als unterkonten des globalen geldes geführt . ich verstehe deine argumentation nicht! erst sagst du, geld ist eine gemeinschaftssache und dann kann jeder sein eigenes geld erfinden?
der rest ist aus zweiter und dritter hand, also nicht sehr fundiert .
new: 2006-04-02 09:24 UTC
HelmutLeitner?
sigi opposed with two questions and a statement:
Q1: “lost, burned” would be avoided by our computer-money concept.
A1: Ok, but removing paper money and coins from the current money system would also solve this problem, but not the social problems that you see in the current money system. So this is not an essential aspect.
Q2: I don’t understand your arguments about “money being a community creation” and “you can create your own money”?
A2: Yes, you (1) can create your own money, but you (2) must create a community and build trust to make the money work. AFAIK you want (1) without (2), and that won’t work.
S: The rest is second hand and not profound.
A: Profound is: money and economy are community phenomena, connected to social responsibility. A global economy must be connected to a global community and a global social system (probably by a global tax system for global players) otherwise it is instable - that’s what we observe.
new: 2006-03-02 17:12 UTC
LionKimbro?
I would add: I don’t think Helmut is being facetious when he says “Anyway, anyone can create money. You and sigi can. Just do it!” I think he really means: “If you want to do this, then do it.” I don’t know about where you live, but where I live, there’s a group called “Time bucks” (I think) that is establishing a local Seattle region alternative currency.
Mattis, you’re right on the money when you say that money is nothing but agreements. And Helmut is right on the money when he says, “yes, and thus you need community.” To support those agreements.
So, it would seem that what follows is making community.
Which… …we’re the Community Wiki, so it works out quite nicely.
new: 2006-03-02 17:12 UTC
LionKimbro?
Helmut: In the US, just so you know: If you make your own money system up, you have to pay taxes on it. It’s illegal (to my non-lawyerly understanding,) to make a currency that is not pegged against the dollar. At least, that’s what I’ve understood so far. (Some quote about: “You can trade in pine cones for all we care; just as long as you pay your taxes on it in US dollars.” Yes, that suggests that in-game virtual currencies are something of a problem, since they’re minting money, trading on it, and not reporting it as taxable income. I personally suspect that the IRS and whoever are going: “hmm, we probably can’t stop this sort of thing, but we don’t know how to deal with it right now, so no point in making any sudden movements.” This said: This is purely my own personal collection from what I’ve seen, and I have no idea really. It’s something I’d like some clarity on, though.
new: 2006-03-02 17:12 UTC
LionKimbro?
I imagine we’re going to be awash in currencies. In some respects, we already are. Wherever people trade favors and have reputations; The currency is the nonmanifest tally they keep in their heads; the ledger is your reputation.
This isn’t to say computers aren’t important: The ability to maintain ledgers in a cryptographically secure way adds new interesting possibilities. (Provided you trust the infrastructure, provided you have some way of trusting the infrastructure.) Bruce Sterling wrote a neat article in Forbes that should inspire imagination. It inspired my imagination, at least..!
Money is called debt, but that has a negative ring. Money eases trade, so encourages specialization.
Money is also a community credit system and store of wealth.
I’m working on (still just the design) of an BoardGame?? or Adventure/MOO/MMORPG which describes the economic framework of an isolated community, island or planet.
This makes me think money:
Credit (debt) helps new workers aquire, use and maintain the MeansOfProduction??.
Trading skill increases complexity, technology.
OTHER IDEAS…
sigi:
@ lion: yes, our money needs a community . not only community wiki . our country is wikilandia, world wide wiki . the hivemind is to come to a consense . that’s the purpose of each communication . our wiki tree is a good beginning . it gathers all persons, which are willing to come to a consense .
@ helmut: ich glaube nicht, dass du an einem computer-geld überhaupt interesse hast . oder täusche ich mich da? wenn ja, wie müsste das denn konkret nach deiner vorstellung aussehen?
@ patrick: wikilandia (world wide wiki) is a new planet . therefore your economic framework could be good for us . can you play it with different parameters? perhaps with a sort of super gold (the quantity of money is always constant)?
-- 2006-04-06
[new:HelmutLeitner:2006-04-06 08:20 UTC]
Q: sigi: Helmut, I do not believe that you are interested in a computer-money - or should I be wrong? How should s computer-money look according to your view?
A: I'm interested in many things, but computer-money is not an active project of mine. The main reason is that I think that the key point is the community. A better (socially responsible) community/society could work without problems with the current money.
A new money system needs a new community, so you primarily have to answer the question "where can I buy what goods", typically this is easy with the inns of a touristic region. But maybe this could also be possible in a larger town by establishing "alternative money" for "alternative (healthy) food" stores and inns, "alternative medicine and goods" (like solar energy system and things like that) and as "social money" maybe given to a certain extent away to the poor. It would be less a computer-money (although maybe computer-managed) than a real physical money (maybe like the perls of Club Mediterrané) and so something outside of taxation systems. Just brainstorming. You were always so busy promoting the Terra and money=1 that you never were interested in what I thought about it ... so I never had a reason to think about this seriously.
[new:MattisManzel:2006-04-06 20:54 UTC]
Originally it has been like that. States kept shiny, non-corrosive, rare and heavy metals, in other words gold in well guarded places. Gold is what precious coins were made of. Now, for not having to carry around 15 kg of gold if it concerened a little more money (and such increasingly happened) bills were issued. On the bills it said: The carrier of this bill will get the amount of gold this bill stands for at he central bank in return for this bill. It was still like that at least on the old Western German Deutschmark bills and I guess it originally was like that all over the world. In 1975 the USA cut out the counterweight of gold in Fort Knox for the existing dollar bills. Eversince money is in free flight. No, it doesn't say anything about a counterweight in gold on the Euro bills anymore.
On any Euro you might have in your pocket (about the price of a nice, delicious icecream cone) there are 17 Euros that only exist somewhere on some bank-account as decimal commas within rows of numbers being pushed around by speculants, money-sharks, stock-market dealers, drug dealers, weapon dealers, dictators and other people often, but not always of dubious trustworthyness (the counterweight of this amount in nice delicous icecream is pretty likely to make you vomit).
Two years ago there was a yacht here in Venice, Italy for some days. It lay on the Riva Sciavoni, the shore of the St. Marks bay which is right in front of the St.Marks square. This is where often during summertime representative ships of rich and super-rich people arrive. I later heard it belongs to one of the Microsoft-bosses, dunno which one. It was about seventy to ninety meter long and it had two helicopters on board, one in the front and one in the rear.
"A better (socially responsible) community/society could work without problems with the current money." - I strongly doubt about that.
"where can I buy what goods" - when R. Stallman made up the free software foundation in the 80ies there was nothing. Now the major part of us runs and uses and communicates via a reliable OS called GNU/Linux. I admit that it takes a little phantasy. But it's imaginable.
[new:HelmutLeitner:2006-04-06 21:32 UTC] Mattis, basically I agree with you, but: we are talking here about money or alternative money and not "no money". May I remind you, that sigi and you promoted the Terra a alternative money, again not as "no money"?
With respect to community/society: I doubt that any new money system in itself can change the way our society behaves towards those that are poor or underdeveloped.
[new:LionKimbro:2006-04-06 21:25 UTC]
Is it possible to structure a meaningful experiment or prototype of an alternative to money? After all, the point has been made repeatedly that there is nothing stopping a community from doing so (other than the very real issues related to Trust). In effect ... Could we at least define a meaningful experiment that would produce Objective results?
Hans: This is not actually an alternative to money; Instead, an alternative money: [http://www.ithacahours.com/ Ithaca Hours.] I wouldn't be surprised if you already know about it. But it is an objective thing, and it's worked well for the residents of Ithaca. I've read that people have paid their rent and groceries in it.
Helmut: I do think making alternative money systems provides some relief. There are a lot of people who are willing to trade, but do not want to trade in US dollars because they don't have many. By making an alternative currency, that they mint and distribute through various means, they give people more money to trade with, that does not hinder them in their usual debits/credits by the dollar system.
But- you're right to target the social relations: The hardest part of establishing an alternative currency is getting people to feel comfortable trading with one another, and maintaining registries.
The registries are something where computers actually help a lot. Ithaca, NY had to print registries, and distribute them. Now it should be much easier, because a lot of people have reliable computers and network connections in their homes.
Another reason to be interested in computers is the InternetBonding? and SocialNetwork? transpareny: This will likely also promote trust between people, and work to establish trade. Very few people are Internet bonded, though, at this point, and social networking software is very primitive.
Many many people have time. Many people have willingness to trade. What they do not have is dollars to (A) get into registries, (B) to spend. And they do not have (C) histories, to establish trust.
[new:LionKimbro:2006-04-06 21:29 UTC]
We should probably separate this out into another page: AlternativeCurrency?, or something. (If we don't already have such a page.)
"WhatIsMoney" is an interesting thing in it's own right. Hans & I might want to separate our conversation into: "EconomicSituation?."
(yes?)
[new:LionKimbro:2006-04-06 21:37 UTC]
With respect to community/society: I doubt that any new money system in itself can change the way our society behaves towards those that are poor or underdeveloped.
My understanding is that a lot of the excitement about alternative currencies, is that it may help the poor or underdeveloped to help themselves. (Less dependent on the current dominant currency.)
[new:HelmutLeitner:2006-04-07 14:05 UTC] ...Is it possible to structure a meaningful experiment or prototype of an alternative to money?...
Yes, of course. Probably it depends on what you want to achieve. What is meaningful? C. K. Ogden wrote an interesting book classic "The Meaning of Meaning".
Why don't you suggest an experiment, so we can discuss the experimental setting and the expected results?
[new: de:2006-04-07 17:00 UTC]
sigi:
@ helmut: wenn das brain storming sein soll, wie du es ja oben suggerierst, dann hast du alle sünden begangen, die man beim brainstorming überhaupt begehen kann (angefangen mit der herabsetzung anderer ideen, gefolgt von billigen ratschlägen bis hin zur beanspruchung der deutungs-hoheit) . wenn aber nicht, dann hast du nur sand (statt perlen) in die diskussion gestreut . ich finde das wenig hilfreich .
@ lion: "could we at least define a meaningful experiment that would produce objective results?" . yes, we can . http://coforum.de/index.php4?4747 (5 co-coins for an english explanation) <br>
"we should probably separate this out into another page: AlternativeCurrency?". (this)
babelfish.altavista.com translation:
: [en]If brain storming is to be, as you suggest it above, then you committed all sins, which one can commit with the brainstorming at all (beginning with the reduction of other ideas, followed by cheap pieces of advice up to the demand of the interpretation sovereignty). if however not, then you have only strewn sand into the discussion (instead of beads). I find that little helpful .
new: 2006-04-02 09:24 UTC
HelmutLeitner?
sigi, AFAIK your main interest was always to promote this money and Terra idea … and that’s fine. I just did not and do not understand why you do not put your feet where your heart is and “walk your talk”. I can only give my advice and it is unchanged: if you want to create money then you have to build community and trust and go into something real. But you never did. Lion is not less fuzzy about this, but compared to you, he is at least not doing this for years. He will quicky work through the problems and arrive at a plausible model. Experiments are elements of predictive science. You must have a theory, a model, at least some expectation, to make an experiment. Then, if it is constructed correctly, then - right or wrong - one will learn something and advance. Mattis and you didn’t want to learn from reality, you started with the answer, and wanted to sell it to the online world. I said and still say “that won’t work” as I often do to many people and you dislike me for that. I can’t change that. Go to AndriusKulikauskas?, give him your real name and identity and let him introduce you to a dozen people and groups around the world who work on alternative money system. There your energy could produce something. Here your talking about money doesn’t. This is a pity see, because we all lack energy, we all would like to change the world and reach more of our goals. So when I criticise you, it’s not because I enjoy to attack you - FightingIsBoring? - but because I can’t look at what you do and your visions and comfort you with a “great ideas, well done” which would make me a nice guy in everybodies eyes.
new: 2006-04-01 23:28 UTC
MattisManzel?
Well. We lost our focus on the topic and that’s the sad part about it (best move out this stuff to an extra page, de not delete it!). Helmut, you still seem to have no idea about the PowerOfVisions??. 1 + 1 = 2 might be right under many circumstances, but making a fool of yourself in front of others, trying hard to make a picture of a goal you strongly feel is right (so strong that you’d even make a fool out of yourself to even make others envision it) and struggeling hard to find solutions, to bridge reality and vision is an act that takes energy. You fail if you haven’t got that energy, sure. But if you succeed it might be more effective than the sum of all logic. Or do you really think the folks that ran up to the bastille in Paris in 1791 had the road all built?
new: 2006-04-02 09:24 UTC
HelmutLeitner?
Mattis, they had a community and they acted in the real world. They had only simple weapons but they were able to handle them. They knew their way.
I’m not against grand visions. FranzNahrada? has this great GlobalVillages? vision and I fully support him and suggest to fully support him. This is because he is not just talking but acting in the real world. Or AndriusKulikauskas?. These are admirable people working very hard to build networks of people supporting each other for real world goals.
new: 2006-04-01 23:28 UTC
MattisManzel?
So, haven’t and don’t we?
new: 2006-04-02 09:24 UTC
HelmutLeitner?
You have done a great job with connecting wikis. Being a messanger between the worlds. Bringing the WikiNode? system to life. We are all indebted to you.
new: 2006-04-01 23:28 UTC
MattisManzel?
Gotta contact Andrius and Franz. Thx for pointing to them again, buddy.
There is no guitar-player, no drummer, no bass-player. There is only the band. It its átomos.
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